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Mobilicity on Rogers new “Chatr” brand: “They’re trying to destroy our success”
New entrant Mobilicity is not keen that Rogers Wireless is planning to launch their new uber discount brand called “Chatr”. The Globe is reporting that Chairman John Bitove said he’s going to file a complaint with the Competition Bureau if Rogers proceeds. “They’re trying to destroy our success” Bitove said. In the “Abuse of Dominant Position” in the Competition Act it states that the “use of fighting brands selectively on a temporary basis to discipline or eliminate a competitor”.
Chatr will be launching in the same cites as Mobilicity has: Toronto, Calgary, Ottawa, Edmonton and Vancouver. In addition, they will offer similar no-contracts and low cost price plans. You can check out the images we were sent that shows Rogers new Chatr brand is directly competing with Mobilicity (and also with Wind and Public Mobile).
I’m sure all the new entrants and incumbents have looked into some sort of legal action. A few days ago Wind Mobile Chairman Tony Lacavera stated that “Chatr” is “great for consumers. We’re achieving our business plan here of creating competition in wireless. The big guys are starting to react and the more they start to react the better we look. I’m really excited about it and I’m ready to compete.”
Competition is certainly here… what are your thoughts?
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58 comments for “Mobilicity on Rogers new “Chatr” brand: “They’re trying to destroy our success””
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Mobilicity has a case here, Wind and Public should join in the suing too.
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this is absurd – the fighting needs to stop
i am still stunned as to why we, as canadians in such a well developed country, aren’t just given free service and cheaper phones. i mean, the iPhone only costs $188 bucks to make – why so expensive? this is an outrage.
screw robbers, telus etc – give us service FOR FREE. when is this going to happen? what kind of a country is this that we live in?
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What I find really odd is that, even with a national network, they are planning to launch only in the cities where Wind operates (and Mobilicity is planning to operate)!
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Rogers should be sued and fined for anti-competitive behaviour. They’re acting shamefully. I’m more ashamed to be their customer and angrier than ever with them after this. I can’t wait till my 3 year contract comes to an end (which should be illegal BTW). I hope Rogers gets what’s coming to them. Nadir Mohamed appears to be a cruel and evil man. I hope he gets what’s coming to him too.
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Chatr is allowed to operate as long as they don’t stay open only for a short time period.(then ONLY purpose of the business is to make competitors go bankrupt).
Mobilicity is the only thing keeping Mobilicity back.
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@Vishal, it’s not odd at all. It’s called predatory pricing and despite what some may say about the wisdom of Rogers doing this, I think it is almost a textbook definition of banned practices in our competition act.
I definitely believe Mobilicity has a strong case here but with Rogers deep pockets and fleet of lawyers, who knows what, if anything will come of it. The intention is crystal clear here. Caht-r isn’t about competition, it’s about quashing competition.
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It’s a shady move on Rogers part. Wind has nothing to worry about, but Public and Mobilicity do.
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This is ridiculous. Mobilicity wants to continue this monopoly game in cell phone providers, have a couple of providers who charge us up the ying yang. Why so afraid of competition? Maybe because Mobilicity is afraid that they’re pathetic services will fail at the hands of a better company.
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@randy
predatory pricing is – if rogers were to launch the product “only” in a few neighbourhoods in scarborough, brampton etc for example at prices that are substantially lower than anyoen else in the market (i.e. – i’ll throw out a number, $10/month unlimited)
As far as we know, Chatr will be priced in line with the new guys and there is no evidence to prove that they are going to launch service only in select zones that will be that small – zone could be “toronto”, “montreal” etc
What do you i****s want? You ask for low prices and here is the result. Now you are all upset because Rogers is lowering prices? Please. If you are that annoyed, start your own company to compete with Rogers. If you are a consumer – sit back, and enjoy the cheap prices.
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Sad but true. Robbers has to man up and compete face to face. I believe CHATr will just destroy these new entrants and then we will see the monopoly of Robbers every where.
WIND and public should join mobilicity to sue robbers.
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@Jarr
You obliviously don’t get the whole picture if Rogers those launch the Chat-r and compete (which is great) once they crush the competition they will just slowly(as before) start hiking up the prices and it will be back as it was before… to the big 3 and no competition….
PS: Don’t care about my grammar and spelling
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Chat-r has zones exactly like wind in the same locations too. I like competition but we all know if Chat-r is succesful and terminates the new entrants, they would suddenly say the price of running a network is going then they would hike prices.
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@jarr, first of all, I don’t appreciate being called an i***t, because I can assure you, I am not.
Second, predatory pricing is not restricted to neighbourhoods. In this case, the “neighbourhoods” are cities, but ONLY select cities where Wind etc have launched, not all cities. …and yes, I think there is a case to be made for this to be in conflict with competition laws. Compare it to the pricing at which Rogers (under its Rogers or Fido brand) sells the same services. Free caller ID vs $8, no setup fee vs $35, unlimited minutes vs more for capped minutes etc.
I don’t think it is us who recoginize this move by Rogers for what it is that are the i****s. I’ll just ammend your last line a little to more accurately reflect what is happening here:
If you are a consumer – sit back, and enjoy the cheap prices. …for a year or two until Rogers has removed the irritant. Then, bend over, pull down your pants, and prepare for business as usal pre-2009.
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my god Mobilicity is so damn annoying. ALL they have done since they came into the public is b***h, complain, and attack. Hell, even WIND doesn’t b***h this much.
Not to mention the actual statement by Mobilicity, that would be like Rogers/Belus turning around and saying the EXACT same thing (because they were here ‘first).
Mobilicity is by far the worst carrier in Canada, mainly because they won’t shut the hell up. Stop bitching and actually DO something. If your products/services are THAT good then the market will decide and you have no reason to go about the way you are.
f**k sakes. These new entrants are just causing more and more s**t storms.
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@ jarr,
I really dont understand your thought process and suspect you are actually a Rogers employee planted here for PR purposes.
Rogers is only opening up Chatr in selective locations (i.e. where their competition is) and offering substantially reduced cost plans to compete with the newcomers.
Everywhere else, Rogers is charging significantly more for the same services.
How can Rogers possibly offer this service? two ideas come to mind:
1) Rogers is already overcharging for services and can safely reduce the cost of the service for the Chatr brand and still make a profit.
2) Rogers is going to make a loss on Chatr and expect the rest of its customers (rogers and fido) to subsidise the new network.
In either case, if the competition such as Wind or Mobilicity dissappear, where is Roger’s incentive to either maintain a service which offers lower profit margins or continue a service which operates at a loss.
So Rogers will most likely close up Chatr and move its customers back into the two main Rogers brands.
If this doesnt go against the heart of our business practice laws, I dont know what would. My interpretation is that is a disgusting and self serving attempt to crush competition in Canada and maintain the collusive monopoly of Bell and Rogers.
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Good for you Mobilicity. Robbers have robbed us for so long already. It was about time someone stood up for consumers. Canada is so behind in anti-competition laws. The reason Europe has the cheapest prices and the best handsets is because 3 carriers in a country can’t fix prices. Bell/Rogers/Telus have been fixing prices for years. Just look at the cost of iPhones in all 3 companies. They’re all exactly the same and all of them have very similarity services. I hope rogers goes down for this price fixing.
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WHAT DO YOU PEOPLE WANT! YOU GUYS ASK FOR LOWER PRICES AND MORE COMPETITION. So now you have it. The negative response here is very entertaining.
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@jarr
Wow. Free service? Someone has an overinflated sense of entitlement. Hell, why shouldn’t Toyota give me a free car and free service for life! Actually screw that. Where’s my free BMW?
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Everyone keeps saying pricing has gone up. Of course it has. We’re all getting things like call display, voicemail, text messaging, unlimited weekends and evenings, data, unlimited network calling, fab 5… people’s usage has gone up, pricing is going to go up. You order a cheese pizza and want some pineapples and bacon, you’re not going to pay the price of a cheese pizza.
Apparently everyone has been asking for competition, well you got what you ordered. everyone carrier has a very good customer loyalty program, my suggestion is stick with the provider you have, near the end of your contract, squeeze as much juice out of them as possible. I dunno you guys ever compared but our prices are pretty much the same as the States. Even similar to Hong Kong Pricing. I don’t know what you’re all complaining about high prices…
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Regardless, all the bitching and hating aside. Rogers will harm Mobilicity and Public (which planned on selling in 5 years anyway) and will force Wind to push forward. Corporate rogers will then drop chatr or increase pricing. NO QUESTION. Anyone who thinks differently is ignorant.
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Keep in mind this probably gonna be a 2G only network… Hopefully people won’t fall for this.
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It’s funny that I just watch a BNN interview with where the WIND CEO said that they are ready to compete with Chatr, and now Mobilicity is crying fowl.
Guess who looks worst? They should be expecting Rogers and the others to match them on pricing. If the rumours are true about the Chatr pricing, then they aren’t even under cutting any of the new entrants…. so I can’t see how that’s anti-competitive.
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http://tinyurl.com/273zchy
Exerpt:
Telecom analyst Iain Grant believes Mobilicity has a strong case against Rogers, given the timing of the launch and the language Rogers has been using in introducing the brand when compared to the wording of the Competition Act.
Many incumbents have so-called flanker brands or “fighting brands,” including Telus’ (TSX:T) Kodoo and Bell’s (TSX:BCE) Solo, which launched a few years ago.
“The difference is when you do it and how you do it,” Grant said. “This is almost a perfect example of what the act was trying to (prevent).”
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This thread is ridiculous. There are a few reason why Chat-r can become a budget brand and charge lower prices than Fido/Rogers.
1. They use AWS (Like Wind)
2. Their coverage is such as small as the budget brands.
3. If you guys were Rogers you guys would want a piece of the budget brand pie too.
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COMPETITION IS NOT IN CANADA ! We still get ripped off for smartphones … 3 year contracts are a joke and the fees too. I don’t want there cheap a*s Samsung massaging phone. I don’t see why the new entrants all went for the dirt cheap plans with phones to match. And contracts aren’t bad, just make them 2 years. I don’t see the hype around the buy your phone thing.
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@ Mo Shahrokni
Prices of the iPhone isn’t judged by the carriers. That’s Apple controlling the price of their own product. Ever notice that no matter where u buy an Apple products, its the same price everywhere?
As for Chat-r, lots of people are talking about them squashing the competition and then closing the brand. But this is all based if Chat-r is successful. If they arn’t; Wind, Public, and Mobilicity should have nothing to be scared of.
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all of you are assuming that Rogers will increase prices on Chat-r in a couple years.
is this for real? take a simple economics course before opening your mouths next time.
Chat-r, Mobilicity, Public Mobile are going for a portion of the market that WANTS a cheap plan with no to low data and does not care about having the latest phone.
If you look at the business plan for Mobilicity, PM, they are going for the roughly 30% of Canadians that DONT have a cell phone now (plus pick up some defectors along the way for sure)
Simple economics and price elasticity. If any of these guys jack up the prices, they’ll just lose customers – these customers will be unwilling to pay more than what they are looking for.
On top of it all – its all no contract! So they’ll just opt out and Rogers/Chatr etc will be SOL.
What would Rogers/Chatr gain by simply jacking up the prices 2 years from now? They’ll just go back to status quo with only 70% of the population using a cell phone, and the other 30% not interested in entering into an expensive contract for a phone they don’t really need.
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Why doesn’t Rogers decide to have Chatr in all major and larger cities? Why just the ones that the new entrants are in? Rogers could get more subs that way too.
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@Nico
ROI (return on investment)
Rogers will presumeably be launching new marketing campaigns + stores (distribution etc) for this brand.
It probably doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to set up a brand new store in a tiny town just to pick off a few customers. It’s like any industry, really. The same reason why you won’t find a major shopping mall in small towns – just small strip malls. Or a “hot new nightclub” – more likely to find these in downtown Toronto versus Northern Ontario.
In time though, they may eventually go that route – but over time. Take a look at guys like MetroPCS and Leap in the US who only operate in the large urban cores – they do not offer services in the cities in between (until very recently, this year in fact). Both have been operating now for almost 10 years, exclusively in urban cores.
It’s the same question to ask the new entrants – why only launch in the urban cores? ROI – make money where money can be made.
It may not be worth (at this time) getting that extra 100 customers in Red Deer for the incremental cost of a new store and all the related marketing. You get more “bang for your buck” in Toronto.
hope it helps.
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@jarr
Your economics is flawed. I’m a fourth year economics major and am currently interning as an analyst at a large canadian bank…
You make assumptions that don’t make sense.
1) You assume that consumers are perfectly informed about market prices and competition. They are not, I would argue that *most* people currently on the rogers network have never even heard of wind or mobilicity. Many people buy a cell phone pay their plan monthly and forget about it.
2) You assume that as prices increase consumers are likely to drop their service and revert to being non-cell phone users. This is wrong for several reasons, largest being that budget minded consumers who buy these phones outright will be unlikely to drop a service who’s price has marginally increased as then their investment in the handset would be seen as a total loss/paperweight.
3) Cell phone companies make much of their money off of plan *overages*. Low budget consumers and infrequent users will often opt-in for a woefully inadequate plan at the lowest of the company’s price point and then be charged high cost overages monthly.
4) What would rogers/chatr gain by jacking up prices? Again, if you look at the above points and then factor in a lack of competition, consumers will be stuck on the service regardless if they have a contract simply because there are no alternatives.
…Take a simple economics course that covers monopoly tactics and game theory and perhaps you will gain a greater understanding about the subject.
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@ jarr are you really that brainwashed that your BA in Business has you comparing US markets with Canadian markets? You should be in politics
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@jarr
are you delusional or purposely trying to distract this conversation.
When there is no longer any competetion to crush Rogers will close Chatr. Rogers will not offer a budget service when they can and have been charging more for the same service everywhere else.
That is why they are starting a new brand all together instead of offering the service through Fido.
It is a paper thin attempt to get around the laws governing predatory pricing in Canada.
Rogers is an example of a company not interested in participating in the free market principles that western civilisation is built on. They are non-Canadian!
Regulated free market capitalism is the best economic system that have. Monopolistic corporate empires a.k.a Robellus are not good for anybody (except the owners of course).
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To everyone getting annoyed at how angry people are and asking us “What do you want?”
This is not about the pricing or whether Chat-r will be successful or any of that, but whether this is an anti-competitive practice.
There are rules set in place to discourage such actions and it looks like this may be one of them.
It looks like Rogers is not just trying to compete with the new entrants, they’re trying to use their dominant position in the market to push the new entrants out of business entirely.
Whether this would be successful or not is moot, it’s the act itself that is suspect.
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rkarsk makes some very good points. The problem is the vast majority of cell phone users are simply not aware of their services. Many consumers don’t know what is a function of the phone (ie. camera) and what is a service that they pay for. The bigger problem is that Rogers has much to gain by jacking up prices. As we have seen all too often, the “competition” will simply match the raised prices using the excuse of “aligning with the industry”.
The other problem is that the Chat-R brand is brilliant from a business perspective. Even if Rogers is sued successfully for predatory pricing, and, let’s say fined more than the entire brand made, it’s still a win for Rogers (as well as the other incumbents)because even at a loss it is successful. The brand would effectively take away market share from the new entrants.
The plans can be the same, the coverage could even be the same because it leaves one point of difference and that is price. The last thing anyone in this industry wants to do is enter into a price war. The big 3 have said that since the takeover of Fido. If the new entrants enter into a price war, they lose. They don’t have enough backing (save for possibly Wind) to cover the financial losses. IF a price war were to occur, the desire to be in the market with slim profit margins would be lost, and firms drop out of the race.
You can bet that the big 3 won’t be the ones dropping out of the race.
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oh my god. some of the logic out here blows my mind. a fourth year economics student arguing on simple logic? take a straight downward sloping graph and just look at it. you take a budget conscious guy who is not committed at all to service right now, offer him something for $x, then jack the price up to $2x – he’s not going to simply “stay”. Sure, some may but the majority wont.
What Rogers is doing is the perfect response – they *have* to do this, why wouldn’t they? Great move on their part. They won’t be jacking up the prices afterwards (not accounting for regular inflationary pricing over time).
No way they “kill” the brand off and then leave it at that.
A tripled branded strategy is likely in the cards for this industry longer term. Top tier, mid tier and lower tier.
Just like any mature telco industry.
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by the way, take a look at the average revenue generated by a guy at leap and metropcs
$38-$40
what overages? The plans themselves start at $40 – so where is the evidence of this overage?
you guys are looking at this too static – take a look at the way the industry will shift longer term and apply some basic logic.
the only way to get to a +100% penetration is to over several choices for several different types of consumers.
an the average monthly rate will probably be somewhere in the $50 range (combining data and voice).
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@Ross Burns +1. I agree with you 100%.
If Rogers were really trying to compete with the new entrants then they would have released the Chatr plans under the Rogers brand and used their existing coverage.
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by the way, if you look at the ‘leaked’ pricing by Chatr – they are NOT predatory pricing and cheap. they actually look kind of lousy. why are you guys arguing about predatory pricing? lol. It’s not like they are coming in at a $10 price point – they look pretty comparable if not a bit more expensive than the new entrants. you guys are complaining for the sake of complaining.
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@ej
if you accuse me of comparing Canada to the US – then to the rest of you – dont compare Canada to the rest of the world as is ALWAYS the case.
“wahh wahh wahh.. Canada’s rates suck, Canada’s services suck wahh wahhh wahh” friggin’ cry babies.
We have to compare as much as we can both to the rest of the world and to the U.S. to get a sense of where things could go. Canada is an immature market compared to the US, but it took MetroPCS and Leap to get mature (i.e. Wind and Mobilicity equivalents) and the prepaid fallouts from the big guys (Sprint, AT&T)
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Interesting that Mobilicity is crying foul when Chat-r doesn’t even offer data. I don’t see the competition bureau doing anything about it. Better luck next time, Mobi
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seriously …… mobilicity isn’t even big yet …
they barely have ANY sucess …
they’re just freaking jealous
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Hahaha wow. There are so many things wrong with that I don’t even know where–or even HOW– to start. Wah wah, mobilicity should have known what they were getting themselves into. It’s a tough world, you can’t run to mommy dearest every time something gets rough. I agree that Canadians fork over TOO much to carry around a cell phone, but I have to admit I’m liking the big three fighting the little men to go dirt cheap.
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@ Jarr… that is a stupid question first of all just because we are developed doesn’t mean things can just be…. Health care is technically free… but not really because or taxes pay for it.. are you implying we should raise taxes so everyone can have a free cellphones?.. get real brah… secondly yes and iphone is a bout 200 to make
but it’s called turning a profit you socialist bastard.. not everything can be cheap… you realize that iPhone is a small computer you pay about grand for a regular computer why can’t you pay half that for a computer in your pocket?
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The problem i have with this is everyone is saying it’s competition when it’s not competition would be if rogers them selves not some cheap brand(they created) cuts prices.. yes you can say they don’t want to devaluate their brand… however creating a new name is just another too fool people to buy there product.. i had no idea rogers bought Fido (microsell) until a few years ago… and it worked… hear i am thinking hahaha not trapped by rogers while really they just put a mask over themselves.. I really don’t see why if rogers is so superior with coverage ect better phones yada yada then why can’t they themselves cut out contracts… they would have people signing with them purely on the basis of having winds service and structure… just bigger better and more bad a*s.. and more functions.. Robellus obviously haven’t figured out that customer loyalty is effective… if done properly.. like can anyone honestly say they like a 3 year plan… and for all those who say but phones would be expensive… who gives a s**t still considering how much people use them and what they can do now the price is justified just like any other major electronic product
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Lets have a vote is “jarr” working for rogers say I
. I~
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@jarr
you do realize rogers will probably increase their fees gradually, like what telus did back last august implementing charged text received messages. People will be pissed and some might leave but the problem is there is only 3 companies they can turn to. Rogers is pulling a walmart i say.
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John Bitove said he’s going to file a complaint with the Competition Bureau if Rogers proceeds. “They’re trying to destroy our success” Bitove said.
WHY ARE YOU CRYING@ JOHN BITOVE LET ROGERS TO LAUNCH ANOTHER WIRELESS COMPANY.
YOUR UNLIMITED 35$ PLAN DOESNT HAVE CALL WAITING,3WAY CALLING AND WIND MOBILE DOESNT HAVE UNLIMTED TEXT, SO THEN LET CHATR’S COME WITH THESE BENEFITS. DONT CRY MR. JOHN JUST COMPETE AS MR. TONY SAID.
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WoW , Instead of Robbers making better offereing of existing services/ they create a brand to directly put down the new entrants
ROGERS Has No Shame
I like competition, but ROGERS could of lowered pricing on Fido plans instead
We all know what will happen if WIND/ Mobilicity/ Public Left the Wireless game
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if these new entrants have a good brand then they wouldn’t be afraid of the competition, after all that’s what they’re citing to gain entrance into the market in the first place, don’t be a crybaby or you can just go hike up your skirt and get on your knees…
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1-Some people on this forum have a hard time hiding the fact they are on Rogers’ payroll.
2-The original story is making more waves:
http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/SciTech/20100709/mobilicity-rogers-100709/
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We’re not happy with rogers and anyone who falls for their chat’r garbage needs to get their head checked. They’ve had several years to play fair and give us fair pricing, they refused. So now that other entrants come into the game, they wanna change how they play their game. As consumers we need to make sure that chat’r bombs and send a msg to rogers.
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1. I wonder what’s gonna happen to Rogers and Fido pay go services.
2. Will Bell come out with a forth service and Telus with a third and if so will ppl b***h about it.
3. Spain or Holland?
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This is ridiculous! Mobilicity has no coverage in the cities other than Toronto and 0 subscribers in those cities other than Toronto. But Bitove calls it a “success”?
If you have no network signal, no subscriber, no sales channel in Calgary, Ottawa, Edmonton and Vancouver, how was your “success” got destroyed by Chatr? On the other hand, Rogers has been doing business in these places for a long long time! They just launch a new brand. Why other new entrants have no problem with that, while only Mobilicity has problems?
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jarr… did you seriously just ask why we aren’t given cell phone service for free? I hope you don’t meant that. As awesome as free service would be, do you not understand the billions of dollars that go into wireless services? Do you not understand that someone ALWAYS has to pay the bill? Do you not understand how HIGH your tax rates would soar for you to get “free” service?
And why the big stink over Chat’r? Come on, WIND is ready to compete but Mobilicity is crying? Nobody here has mentioned the niche market concept and it’s extremely important in understanding what these brands are for. When WIND launched, they targeted the unlimited sector of the market which no one had really done except when Fido had CityFido (the older version). Now that the unlimited sector of the market has been tapped people are rushing in to get a piece of the pie. Has everyone forgotten that Solo is being rebranded to do the same as Chat’r? Wake up.
Some of you need to seriously stop with this “these corporations are out to rule the world” stuff already.
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I love this comment:
“It is a paper thin attempt to get around the laws governing predatory pricing in Canada.”
I find this absolutely hilarious considering how Wind and it’s predator communication giant Orascom got into the Canadian market, with deceptive tactics and a backer that has no reputation wherever they go throughout the world filled with corruption/countless law suits …and some of you actually have the ignorance to imply Rogers is worse than Wind because they are smart enough to create a new brand to compete and stay alive.Ironically some even bigger fools because they just hate Rogers so much for no logical reasons want to also imply that millions are against Rogers with no basis implying that they are running from the provider and that the new entrants will save our industry.Are you guys smoking or what and that’s how pathetic many Wind Boys are.Plus,very gullible individuals and easily lead to believe anything…just what Tony the Hustler wants/needs/expects.
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dont pay any attention to me, I have problems with some sociopath alter ego, harmless, just causes me to spout all kinds of pro rogers bullshit
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Mobilicity just shut down their 6 major corporate stores in GTA for financial or business reasons. Is this the issue?
NO!
The issue is their credibility. They threatened to sue Rogers but chickened out, they launched unlimited Pakistan Plan but chickened out, they have closed most of their major corporate stores and claim to open new smaller ones at some point in time in the future – will they chicken out on this as well?
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Where was Chatr before mobilicity & wind????????……. they were busy robbing people.
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